NoteBook Discussion Forums: Special Interest Communities - Writers Using NoteBook

Not ready for prime time--never has been (commented by Summer Storm Pictures)

Summer Storm Pictures — Sun, 29 Jan 2012 16:05:05 +0000

To dispense with one comment about me being a “produced screenwriter” that “bestows” me some special privilege, my doing so seemed completely acceptable since this particular thread/topic was for “writers using Notebook.” I was simply trying to put myself in some context so other writers (not lawyers) could see where I was coming from. Nothing more. I expect no medals or knighthood or anything else.

Back to the topic: My overall concerns with CPN have not changed. I still think this is just a confused app with a pretty face. It is inspired from a UI standpoint, but from a usability and intuitive point of view, beauty is only skin-deep.

What did get me wandering back in here is that I finally did find a writer-specific potential for this software—and that is of a “board” of sorts where I can shuffle around and organize notes/stickies in advance of delving into a story. I have yet to find a nice but simple post-it or notecard-type utility that “fits just right” for this task that is visually useful. I’m going to see if CPN might work. Ideally I’d love to have something as simple as the standard Stickies utility that comes with the Mac OS, but as inspired as Apple occasionally is, they abandoned this utility back in the 1990’s.

So, this update is to let anyone interested know that I am trying to use CPN one last time, for the simplest of tasks, a $50 notecard/stickies utility. Maybe it’ll find a place in my work stream…finally…

Some immediate feedback, usability issues and unsolicited suggestions:

FONT: Had to change the default font to a much more readable Noteworthy 14 pt. which displays quite nicely on notes and stickies; is compact, yet big enough to be read and small enough to fit on the default note size.

SHUFFLING: I wish one could move these note elements forward and backwards (behind and in front of one another), but they seem to be preordained. I like to make “piles” of notecards as they accumulate, re-ordering them. I can see this will be a bit of a problem eventually. If anyone knows how to do this, chime in.

STICKY FLAGS: Why do sticky flags display “flag out” off the left side of a notebook but not the right side? This is kind of an obvious UI fail.

TABS: I would actually consider using tabs if they could be displayed on top or on the bottom of a notebook, not just the right side. This would make them much more readable—to me at least. This is why I have stopped using them and use the sticky flags instead.

MOVING: How can I move a note from one page to another? If I drag it off outside, it “poofs” and vaporizes. I’d love this ability especially, perhaps more than anything else.

Now, I’m sure somebody will say “you idiot, of course you can do this” to several of my above points, but why isn’t it intuitive? This is one of my pet peeves about this boutique app—nothing is intuitive or obvious to a long-time Mac (since 1984) user.

Not ready for prime time--never has been (commented by DeepYogurt)

DeepYogurt — Mon, 16 Jan 2012 02:04:42 +0000

Linda – have you tried setting the “To Conform to selected paper size” option in the File/Print menu (select the Layout tab to see this option)? Without doing this NoteBook shrinks the text like you describe, even though the option “As it appears onscreen” makes more sense to me. But the “NoteBook Help” menu item brings up the “Help Center” and in chapter 14 (Frequently Asked Questions) in the “Printing” section, it talks about what to do when printed text is smaller than Onscreen.

There are other options in the File/Print command window like the “Appearance” and “Page Numbers” sections/panes to help with other optional printing issues – things like page numbers at the bottom of each page in two different ways, whether to print keywords, stickers, highlighting, links, etc

Hope this helps with your printing issue. When I tried it, it seemed to help a lot.

I think the issue is trying to get the printed page to match what the screen shows, but that’s really hard to do as NoteBook window can be sized to whatever you want on screen and so then the issue becomes how to print the text and whether it’s possible to match the screen format or not, and if not what NoteBook does to try it’s best. I wonder if the developers could give more options on controlling the printed output – things like specific font and/or size to use for printing, etc might be helpful.

But bold text always came out bold for me, italics always came out italics, etc – the only thing that changes is amount of text on a line, i.e. the size.

Perhaps there are things that others might suggest to make NoteBook more able to be a WYSIWYG type of app when it comes to printing? Things like how big to make the window, etc might be important.

Anyway, hope this tip helps with preventing the text coming out so small when you go to print.

-Bob

ps – can you give us an example of a problematic web site that caused NoteBook to crash and what exact steps were done that caused the crash so we can offer possible suggestions? Is the crashing random or is it easily reproducible?

Not ready for prime time--never has been (commented by Linda)

Linda — Wed, 11 Jan 2012 17:11:28 +0000

I very much want to like CP Notebook (for Mac) because it seems like such a cool application and much easier to use than the confusing Word notebook. But I’ve had lots of problems in the 2 years since I created a running project with CP Notebook. Problems with text and highlighting, several crashes where I’ve lost pages. Importing web text unleashed major problems and crashes. Tech support was good about getting back to me but could not solve that problem, so I stopped importing web text. The latest problem is not being able to print out my pages in a format that looks good. The text is miniscule no matter how many times I clear the formatting and reformat (losing my bold text along the way) and no matter the commands I enter on the print command page. In the end, I cut and pasted these pages into Word and printed that way with no problems. Now I’m debating copying the entire CP Notebook into Word and calling it a day.

Not ready for prime time--never has been (commented by JonathanP)

JonathanP — Tue, 10 Jan 2012 15:21:02 +0000

While I can appreciate the frustration of the “produced” screenwriter who began this thread (as if being “produced” bestows upon a writer a special ability to critique software), one must wonder what set him off on this rant in the first place. If he has been happy with MS Word (despite the bloat, and despite the availability of many screenwriting-specific tools out there for Macs), then why was he even bothering to experiment with CP NB? My intuition is that he did not give CP NB a chance, as can be seen from the responses from others who have had completely different experiences with NB.

Yes, NB is different. With the differences come the features that make it more useful than Word (even the “notebook” feature of recent versions of Word), and even some database apps like DevonThink, which I suspect some researchers on this thread have tinkered with in the past (or maybe use for other tasks), as well.

The downside of “difference”, as with any software app, is that there can be a learning curve – some will find the curve more manageable than others. I agree that the manner in which some processes in NB are handled is not intuitive—not to me, at least. At the same time, I can appreciate why the processes are handled the way they are, even though I am not a programmer. This product has been around for many years, and it has managed to grow (and I would say flourish) even with some very serious changes in the way Apple has decided to modify some manners in which databases are handled within OS X.

I echo the comments of others regarding support – it has always been prompt, friendly, and honest. All of my questions and issues have been resolved. When I have asked for “enhancements” or “changes in the way NB handles certain tasks”, or even just help in understanding the logic behind the “way of the NB”, these requests have been considered by support staff (especially Eric) in a timely fashion, with thoughtfulness and genuine concern for me as a user. If my special request cannot be resolved, it normally is the result of a limitation in the way Apple requires NB to interact with the OS.

I have been using NB for more than five years, and I have yet to lose a NB or find one that suffered from irreparable corruption. (I did experience a few corrupted NBs years ago when I tended to sync NBs between two Macs and was not careful enough about making sure I followed CP-suggested protocol, or I ventured into using some early “cloud” sync services that did not play well with Apple’s “packages” format for databases.) Many of my NBs reach sizes of 6 MB or more. I know from experience that an MS Word document of that size will crash or become corrupted at some point, especially if it includes any attachments (think large 150 page commercial contract with 100s of pages of PDF or Excel exhibits.) Even when the bloated Word doc does not crash, it takes forever to load and manipulate (even on the fastest Macs).

I think this thread can be helpful for folks thinking of getting their feet wet with CP NB. The price point for entry into the NB world is VERY low compared to what else is out there, but NB does require a different though approach for many who have been trained over the years to think that computers are useful as writing instruments only by using the “separate documents arranged in a file tree folder system”. If you like to keep your screenplays, letters, research, and other items organized into manilla folders in a file cabinet or box, then you will need to reach back to your days of keeping all of your materials (whether for classes, research, or creative writing) in a spiral-bound or three-ring binder with dividers.

As an attorney who has worked with European clients, they frequently laugh at the typical American lawyer’s habit of arranging, using, referencing, and storing client files in loose folders, grouped together only by a box or “redweld”, while European businessmen and attorneys are able to quickly and easily find what they need in a “two ring” binder style notebook. I view CP NB as the equivalent of the binder approach to file management, whether it be a bunch of legal contracts, correspondence and notes, or a portfolio of stories or other artistic works.

For those considering trying out CP NB, please do not let the originator of this thread scare you away from at least seeing if it is the right “fit”. Every software app has a learning curve. If you’re not prepared to invest some time in truly learning the app, then you will always find yourself returning to the hum-drum, often second- or third-best method of accomplishing the task at hand.

Not ready for prime time--never has been (commented by Todd Brockway)

Todd Brockway — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 21:12:39 +0000

Wow!!!
I have no computer credentials. I just click and type and add cool “stuff” to my notebook it just works no crashes maybe at some point aren’t you supposed to back up? Any way sorry your experience was so bad Summer Storm. But you are right it is helpful when people speak out about their use experience and that’s why it is pretty clear that the majority falls to the side of Notebook being a great product really. She is pretty and she is trustworthy. Well anyway I have to go finish my Kool-Aid. ;o

Not ready for prime time--never has been (commented by rshs)

rshs — Thu, 27 Oct 2011 17:36:24 +0000

I too am a produced screenwriter. I can imagine how I would work on research and outlines for screenplays without NoteBook, but it would be a far less efficient and fun experience. I know what the naysayers are talking about—there was a time when the package format of Notebooks meant they were fragile. Even today, the reason I came to the forums was to find out if anyone else is having the problems I am having using Dropbox to sync a large Notebook with my iPad. But that pales in comparison to the fun and power I’ve experienced using NoteBook and the almost one-on-one customer support I’ve experienced.

This latter item really fires me up. I’m so sorry people have experienced support here they consider terrible, because I can’t sing the praises of Circus Ponies support loudly enough. Oh my God, fast, detailed and helpful replies. Even chat and jokes! The difference between the support experience at CP and, say, Microsoft is winter and summer. (It’s not just the size of the company: Apple offers good support. But it is why I love doing business with small, passionate developers.)

Clipping from the Web. Audio recording meetings while taking notes. Using flags and stickies. Creating simple flowcharts and drawings. Attaching and annotating PDFs. And of course, writing detailed, intricate outlines. In short, creating one master file that contains the sum knowledge and imagination of my latest script, everything but the script itself. I’m not sure there is any other way to achieve this on the OS X platform (Scrivener? OmniOutliner?). And I’m positive there’s no other way to do it that’s as attractive and fun.

I’m sorry anyone’s had such problems with CP’s product and its support that they’re despairing. I wish you had had my experience: flawed, of course, but among the best software use and support I’ve encountered.

I’m a former technology journalist. I have no connection with CP other than being a customer. Those are my digital cents.

Not ready for prime time--never has been (commented by Matt R.)

Matt R. — Fri, 26 Aug 2011 18:46:34 +0000

I’ve used Notebook for some years and never lost data. For me making sure I don’t lose data is the most important issue, and I would like to know exactly how data might be lost and recovered.

Actually I have lost data with MS Word and Excel. In fact ironically, the Excel Notebook function which binds several sheets into something like looks like a notebook (not sure if still available in current version) caused me to lose much data. I would try it again with later versions but again found it buggy.

I am a software developer as well and am also a paranoid saver so I can deal with MS. But I think the best part of OpenOffice (now I’m using NeoOffice) is that despite how slow is is even on my MB Pro it has this awesome Restore feature that will automatically restore corrupted files after a crash. Perhaps that is because it can crash a lot I guess.

Finally, I have many times sent questions and also bugfix requests. The developer of Circus Ponies Notebook has ALWAYS been extremely fast, persistent in followups, conscientious, reliable, friendly, and competent. The exact opposite of Microsoft. If it loses data then tar feather and broil, okay. I haven’t seen that myself but anyone who posts that without saying exactly why/how they lost data is being irresponsible and sounds untrustworthy to me. That isn’t kool-aid. Microsoft and OpenOffice are inapropriate for quick notemaking and creative thinking so I use TextEdit and Notebook. There are functions I’d like, like a table editor like MS, and inserting Excel tables, but I use Notebook and like to do so. It fits my work style and is an improvement against nested folders of text files. And it’s fun and impressive, and understandable to anybody due to its advanced intuitive design. It is a good ad for a Mac too.

writing-specific features (commented by Eric)

Eric — Fri, 26 Aug 2011 09:02:42 +0000

The ability to add a word count feature is on NoteBook’s possible future features list.

writing-specific features (commented by Steve in Acworth)

Steve in Acworth — Thu, 25 Aug 2011 13:58:33 +0000

Well that answers the question I had and that prompted me to join the forums—no word count. They should add this feature.

Markdown (commented by Johandp72)

Johandp72 — Mon, 15 Aug 2011 06:13:53 +0000

Thanks Eric,

I already own CP. Currently I am exploring different ways to integrate it into my workflow, which relies on capturing data on my iPhone (including writing essays / thought pieces & other notes).

I find that my main problem is getting those notes into CPN, a manual process at best.

Any ideas how to solve that would be appreciated.

As for markdown: if CPN understood markdown format then I could write my notes in a text editor in markdown an import to CPN.

So there are two problems here:
a) How to automate data capture (mostly OPML & text notes)
b) How best to format the text files for eradability later.

Many thanks

Markdown (commented by Eric)

Eric — Sun, 14 Aug 2011 18:27:14 +0000

It appears that these products take plain or minimally formatted text and turn them into HTML or similar variants. I’m not sure how that would work with a Notebook page. Of course, a Notebook page can include plain text, but NoteBook also uses a hierarchical outlining format plus allows the addition of other elements such as file attachments and drawing elements. Those may not work with such products looking at transforming plain text.

One significant capability of NoteBook, though, is the ability to export pages to HTML. Perhaps that may be something that could be useful in conjunction with those products.

And perhaps there are some NoteBook customers out there who may also have experience with those products who could chime in.

We do offer a fully-functional 30-day demo trail of NoteBook, so if you’d like you could try it out for yourself. You can get the trial here:

http://www.circusponies.com/downloads

Markdown (by Johandp72)

Johandp72 — Fri, 12 Aug 2011 11:11:41 +0000

Does Circus Ponies support Markdown / MultiMarkdown?

Many thanks
Johan

writing-specific features (commented by amc)

amc — Wed, 22 Jun 2011 07:31:30 +0000

I’m just revisiting Notebook and was astonished to find that I’d written the original post on this thread. (I can’t seem to re-sign in as bashosfrog). I came here to say almost the same thing, having forgotten about this post.

I’m really impressed with the refinement that Notebook has undergone since I last used it in earnest, including some of the work on the writing pages. So impressed that I think I’ll pick it up again in earnest.

But … I still think the writing page idea needs some love.

- still no word count. Who writes without word counts?
- a non-editable margin. This would be the perfect place for line/paragraph numbers.
- Styles. Tortuously clunky – it takes me five mouse clicks and a lot of incidental mousing to re-set the style I want, with tab-indents and white space, every time I open a writing page. Nice to be able to set-and-forget this in the Inspector.

While I’m at it, I really like the ability to highlight the line I’m working on. :)

Given a little massaging along these lines, I can see Notebook as a one-stop-shop for notes & short prose (& poetry, if that’s your bent), just like paper notebooks have been for centuries.

Writing page or Note page?? (by Historian)

Historian — Sun, 05 Jun 2011 20:06:51 +0000

I am using Notebook to organize research materials (pdf.s of articles) and my own notes. I need pages to hold a pdf. of an article, + my own comments and notes. I can’t figure out whether a ‘note page’ (with separate cells holding files and writing) or a ‘writing page’ (which also can hold an attached pdf. or other file) is best for me. The manual offers no real guidance on this. I would like my notebooks to be simple, straightforward, and uniform. What are the real differences between writing pages and note pages? Any advantages to using one or the other?

Not ready for prime time--never has been (commented by Mike McLaren)

Mike McLaren — Thu, 14 Apr 2011 09:05:26 +0000

Sorry so2u, but I’m gonna disagree with you. I use Notebook for just about everything, and I’m gonna continue using it. As for Microsoft Word… I quit using that buggy business fifteen years ago, and I’ve never regretted my decision.

Mike

Not ready for prime time--never has been (commented by ptram)

ptram — Tue, 12 Apr 2011 17:08:52 +0000

Hi Netrapt, actually, modern versions of Word cannot read my documents written in Word 5.1 Mac. So, I wouldn’t say that, in my case, the “standard” format was of great help!

In any case, I didn’t stop using Word for how cluttered and uninspiring it was, but for how unreliable it is. Last time I used it it still had an old bug, that consisted in deleting previously saved text. Just to name one.

However, comparing Word (a wordprocessor) and NoteBook (an outliner/snippet collector) is probably a sign of lack of understanding of the problems these programs are supposed to solve. It might probably be better to stop a little, and see if the problem lives in the software, on in a wrong analysis.

Best, Paolo

capturing dates and mail info for email clips (commented by Eric)

Eric — Tue, 08 Mar 2011 10:35:15 +0000

You can do pretty much what you want now. For clippings from Mail, the sender, date and subject are captured in the Clipping sticker associated with the outline item. Click and hold the sticker to see this information plus some actions you can perform based on that data.

For web clippings, there is a similar Snapback sticker that captures the source URL if possible.

NoteBook does its best to capture this data, but if the source application or web site does not provide it in a recognizable format (or at all), NoteBook won’t be able to obtain it. Fortunately, most seem to be able to do so.

capturing dates and mail info for email clips (by Carol Grossman)

Carol Grossman — Mon, 07 Mar 2011 18:46:23 +0000

I am using the internet and email for a lot of research and tracking email inquiries. As far as I have been able to tell, there is no way to automatically capture sender/recipient, date created/accessed, or url information for material taken from websites or emails.

Without this information, the clippings are almost worthless. Now, all of this information has to be added manually to the note page. Since the information is readily available at the time the clipping is created, it would be extremely valuable to have it picked up and inserted on the clipping page in the notebook.

Notebook has excellent indexing capabilities, and this capability would add tremendously to its value for writers and researchers.

As an extra bonus, it would be nice to then be able to sort pages based on this meta information.

If anyone knows how to accomplish this automatically, I would appreciate a description of how to do it!!

Not ready for prime time--never has been (commented by netrapt)

netrapt — Fri, 25 Feb 2011 03:07:34 +0000

Interesting thread. My background – Fortran, Pascal, VB programmer, web designer (occasional PHP programming).

I have used MS Word for something like 25 years. I think that is when it was first created, back in 1986. Ah! Those were the days when it could fit within 100Kb and I have some of those files still, which still can be read by the latest version. Amazing. That version was blazing fast and really did nearly all of what you ever wanted a word processor to do. The features since then have been to move from MS-DOS to Windows, and therefore have a graphical interface and of course the web enhancements which did not exist in the past.

As it got bigger and bigger its reliability became less and less. There is a lot of bloat in this software, who needs it this bloat. Having written many 300 page reports in MS Word (which is on the verge of insanity) the software has corrupted many of these files. As soon as a graphic goes into the MS Word file it has struggled with the correct formatting and positioning of the graphics, and eventually crashes. The files also contain MS Excel charts.

So has Microsoft been dishonest to say MS Word can handle all this? Not really, but they haven’t told the whole truth in regard to its ability to handle these attachments whether linked or inserted. Yes I have even contacted Microsoft on numerous occasions regarding the corruption and mmmm no response apart from we have received your response.

I found my own solution by dividing the document into smaller documents, and although I had some problems it worked most of the time except for the graphics jumping around the place at times. So MS Word is still buggy in this feature but okay. I have moved to OpenOffice and Pages. These handle the MSWord documents quite well and surprise surprise handle attachments even better than MSWord and I do not get corruption of files. I can say I haven’t had one since I have changed over.

But I have always used backups to make sure, which as a long time user of Windows and MSDOS I have learnt to do as a habit.

Enter Notebook.

I have had great relationship with Notebook.
It is just so well designed. It feels good to use and you can organise it any way you want. It lets you the user work out the best way to organise your stuff.

In fact for the past 2 years I use Notebook for all my projects and writing. It keeps everything organised for me. I do not need any ToDo list software, Writing Software, Notetaking software, Project software, Outliner software, Files Organising software. Notebook does it all and I do not have to learn how to use many pieces of software.

I have found it to be very reliable except for one update where I reported the problem and it was responded to within 4 hours and an update done within 2 days. Now that is a better response to my problem from Microsoft.

As far as corrupted files – none. I have probably been lucky, but all my Notebooks consist of 200+ pages, some over 1000 pages and many megabytes. They have many attachments inserted into the document as I need to share them to others via the web or pdf.

A corruption will not bother me though as I always backup to my Dropbox at the end of the day, so at most I would loose one day. I had thought about using my Notebooks in Dropbox but I have heard that this does cause corruption issues, so to be safe I only backup to Dropbox.

So in conclusion I have found MSWord to reliably read documents going back 20 years. It is the doc format that can be read. The Notebook format can be opened by the mac operating system (show package contents) where you can retrieve images and attachments at least. I suppose with the doc format we are lucky that Microsoft has dominated the world and hence the longevity of the format. I hope that Notebook is around for another 20 years but I doubt it but pdf and web format will. All my Notebooks find there way to this final output, so I really do not need to worry about the longevity of Notebook itself.

I like using Notebook. Simple as that. It works and I have not had any files corrupt except for one, which was my fault entirely. Sorry to hear “Summer Storm” has had so much trouble with the program. So you could say my experience has been the reverse of yours, strange but true.

Why would Microsoft not need to be bothered about “boutique competitors” such as CPN. I remember the days when dBase , a wordprocessor whose name I forget and Lotus 123 ruled. Microsoft only developed an operating system for IBM machines (PC) which was one of many but nevertheless was the main one probably 85% share. They branched out to develop Word processors and Spreadsheets and even databases, kind of a boutique developer in these areas. Not to be taken seriously, you could not displace these other companies who had 95% share of the market. But they did from 0% to total domination. The same can happen to Microsoft, who is well aware of this and continually buy out little guys who have great ideas.

Not ready for prime time--never has been (commented by Summer Storm Pictures)

Summer Storm Pictures — Mon, 14 Feb 2011 05:12:29 +0000

Clearly this is not a “useless thread.” It has generated generally thoughtful responses from both sides. That in itself is helpful to any potential owner of this software.

The old adage, “don’t fix what ain’t broke” is probably the best way to summarize my experience with CPN. CPN fixed and added an inspired cosmetic interface to the tired old word processing environment, but it broke what is really important—reliability and piece of mind.

”This is the most useless thread. If the product is so bad, why do you waste your time posting? The posts contain no substantive information, and therefore do not even serve as a public service. Methinks you work for a competitor.”

My time “wasted” describing my experiences is no more “wasted” than someone posting theirs. Time spent, however, telling someone else they are wasting their time—that definitely is wasted time. Also, do you really think that if I worked for Microsoft, with their huge install base, that I’d worry about a little boutique competitor like CPN?

On a related note, the .doc, .docx formats may be proprietary, but they are readable outside of the software. CPN isn’t.

”The software is buggy and unstable in its current form. I get the impression that it might once have been more stable but that is clearly now history (which is clear if you browse around these forums and elsewhere on the web). I think it is immoral for companies to promise so much and deliver a product that simply does not deliver for so many users.”

I agree. Having tried, way more than I should have really, to make CPN work, I finally realized I was indeed wasting my time. I shouldn’t have to do that. Like many, I was, unfortunately, lured by the inspired presentation and wanted it to work. If Microsoft Word had this great working interface, it would be perfect.

”I’ve been using NB for at least 5 years and in that time I think I’ve had one, possibly two corrupted documents (but I had a backup to go back to).”

Anybody who does not back up is asking for it. However, I’ve used Word/Office since 1987 on both the Mac and Windows platforms. I have never had a corrupted document. Never. I’ve had hard drives go belly-up, but no one individual document. I also emphatically reiterate that I am no Microsoft (Office or otherwise) shill. In my 20-plus-years using Word/Office, 14-plus-years have been on the Mac platform. While Word/Office is certainly bloated and quite uninspired in its presentation, like a diesel engine, it just runs without incident.

”On the few occasions I’ve reported a bug or suggested an enhancement I’ve often received a personal reply from Jayson within a couple of days at most. Some, but not all of my issues, were addressed in subsequent releases.”

Oh how I wish I had this kind of experience. When the same issues remain buggy and unfixed, update after update, there comes a time to jump ship.

I know a few professors at a university, many who have tried CPN. I see them all using Word/Office now. Each said more or less the same thing. It just wasn’t reliable.

For me, it’s just too little too late.